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	<title>Comments on: In Her Shoes: Female Attorneys on Golf and Stilettos</title>
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		<title>By: What do American Sports, say about America? - Interfaith forums</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-3605</link>
		<dc:creator>What do American Sports, say about America? - Interfaith forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] What do American Sports, say about America?     cOde..just for you...  In Her Shoes: Female Attorneys on Golf and Stilettos  Advice to a new lawyer about golf, shoes and corporate culture. Inspired by the ferocious debate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What do American Sports, say about America?     cOde..just for you&#8230;  In Her Shoes: Female Attorneys on Golf and Stilettos  Advice to a new lawyer about golf, shoes and corporate culture. Inspired by the ferocious debate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ms. Excluded</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-1497</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms. Excluded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-1497</guid>
		<description>What a great post!  Unfortunately, I found it at a bad time.  I&#039;m in the position of having to try to find advice as to what to do with my current work situation.

I&#039;m working for a small law firm that has six attorneys - five men and I&#039;m the lucky female.  I&#039;ve been with the firm for the past year and I&#039;ve been continuously excluded from events, lunches, and seminars which are attended by all of the attorneys.  Every morning my boss walks by and makes it a point to say hi and walk into the neighboring attorney&#039;s office and walks past my office without even so much as a wave.  On Fridays the attorneys get together for lunch and on occassion I get the invite.  Lunch meetings with local legal groups or politicians, even the ones where I tell my boss the day before that I&#039;d like to go, he grabs all of the other attorneys and walks out without bothering to let me know he&#039;s leaving.  I&#039;ve heard of sexist joke emails being sent around by my boss (according to him the email was sexist) that I never receive but I would love to see them just to feel included.  Not only that, my office is the filing room for a major case and is also the printing room.  Obviously, the other attorneys have amazing offices that do not have such distractions.  There are days that I question whether all of this is because I&#039;m a woman, if there is something about me that they just don&#039;t like, maybe I did something so that I don&#039;t deserve to be treated the same, etc.

When I realized what was going on, I started including myself in everything.  If everyone is smoking cigars out on the deck, I invite myself up to join them; if I see them piling into my boss&#039; vehicle for lunch, I run out to join them; I&#039;ve repeatedly requested to have my office cleaned up and the printer removed; instead of waiting for my boss to acknowledge my presence, I say hi to him in the morning.  

I feel like I have two choices: sit around and count everything I&#039;m continually not included in or just include myself.  I have no idea if I&#039;m doing the right thing or whether there are some other solutions out there.  I love my work.  I&#039;m nervous about leaving the firm because I don&#039;t want to change the type of work that I&#039;m doing and I&#039;m afraid I would not have a good answer for &quot;Why did you leave your last firm?&quot; 

Obviously, I&#039;m a new attorney and need some help.  (Also, there are two other male attorneys that have started at the same time so the fact that I&#039;m new doesn&#039;t appear to be the reason for the constant exclusions.)  Any suggestions that you have on how to handle this, I&#039;d love to hear them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a great post!  Unfortunately, I found it at a bad time.  I&#8217;m in the position of having to try to find advice as to what to do with my current work situation.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m working for a small law firm that has six attorneys &#8211; five men and I&#8217;m the lucky female.  I&#8217;ve been with the firm for the past year and I&#8217;ve been continuously excluded from events, lunches, and seminars which are attended by all of the attorneys.  Every morning my boss walks by and makes it a point to say hi and walk into the neighboring attorney&#8217;s office and walks past my office without even so much as a wave.  On Fridays the attorneys get together for lunch and on occassion I get the invite.  Lunch meetings with local legal groups or politicians, even the ones where I tell my boss the day before that I&#8217;d like to go, he grabs all of the other attorneys and walks out without bothering to let me know he&#8217;s leaving.  I&#8217;ve heard of sexist joke emails being sent around by my boss (according to him the email was sexist) that I never receive but I would love to see them just to feel included.  Not only that, my office is the filing room for a major case and is also the printing room.  Obviously, the other attorneys have amazing offices that do not have such distractions.  There are days that I question whether all of this is because I&#8217;m a woman, if there is something about me that they just don&#8217;t like, maybe I did something so that I don&#8217;t deserve to be treated the same, etc.</p>
<p>When I realized what was going on, I started including myself in everything.  If everyone is smoking cigars out on the deck, I invite myself up to join them; if I see them piling into my boss&#8217; vehicle for lunch, I run out to join them; I&#8217;ve repeatedly requested to have my office cleaned up and the printer removed; instead of waiting for my boss to acknowledge my presence, I say hi to him in the morning.  </p>
<p>I feel like I have two choices: sit around and count everything I&#8217;m continually not included in or just include myself.  I have no idea if I&#8217;m doing the right thing or whether there are some other solutions out there.  I love my work.  I&#8217;m nervous about leaving the firm because I don&#8217;t want to change the type of work that I&#8217;m doing and I&#8217;m afraid I would not have a good answer for &#8220;Why did you leave your last firm?&#8221; </p>
<p>Obviously, I&#8217;m a new attorney and need some help.  (Also, there are two other male attorneys that have started at the same time so the fact that I&#8217;m new doesn&#8217;t appear to be the reason for the constant exclusions.)  Any suggestions that you have on how to handle this, I&#8217;d love to hear them!</p>
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		<title>By: Ashley</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-1430</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-1430</guid>
		<description>Hi, it so funny that you write about shoes and the law. I worked for a firm this summer and they kept making comments about my shoes. I would greatly appreciate if you wrote me an email. I would like to discuss this topic further with you, considering you were once an attorney (or maybe started practicing again). 

Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, it so funny that you write about shoes and the law. I worked for a firm this summer and they kept making comments about my shoes. I would greatly appreciate if you wrote me an email. I would like to discuss this topic further with you, considering you were once an attorney (or maybe started practicing again). </p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: jacqueline</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-822</link>
		<dc:creator>jacqueline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-822</guid>
		<description>No one&#039;s burning bras. I play golf (sank the winning 11 foot putt in the scramble), I wear shoes I like to wear.  I was the one woman invited into the closed door joke sessions - because they knew they could trust me and my trust of them.I learned how to earn the respect that I have though. I have seen countless young women who assume the men are taking them seriously and they are horribly misreading it. I still defend them.

You misread the intent of the article I think, Bailey, as well as the content. But that&#039;s okay. Did you read the other articles? Maybe it will help you see, it&#039;s not just bra burners and old farts like me (I&#039;m sure I look quite different than you might imagine.) There is humor in my piece, perhaps too subtle.

Also, I&#039;d just ask you to print this out put it away for about 20 years, then take it out and re-read it. Chances are you&#039;ll have a different reaction. I&#039;d bet my Blahniks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one&#8217;s burning bras. I play golf (sank the winning 11 foot putt in the scramble), I wear shoes I like to wear.  I was the one woman invited into the closed door joke sessions &#8211; because they knew they could trust me and my trust of them.I learned how to earn the respect that I have though. I have seen countless young women who assume the men are taking them seriously and they are horribly misreading it. I still defend them.</p>
<p>You misread the intent of the article I think, Bailey, as well as the content. But that&#8217;s okay. Did you read the other articles? Maybe it will help you see, it&#8217;s not just bra burners and old farts like me (I&#8217;m sure I look quite different than you might imagine.) There is humor in my piece, perhaps too subtle.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;d just ask you to print this out put it away for about 20 years, then take it out and re-read it. Chances are you&#8217;ll have a different reaction. I&#8217;d bet my Blahniks.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicki Gilmour</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-807</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicki Gilmour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-807</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;dont create a pink ghetto, find common interests.&lt;br /&gt;
In the book WHY WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS , the authors Alison and Avivah talk about approach gender in a bi-lingual sense. speak both gender languages - recognise they are different. celebrate the differences, without tolerating the boys club. i think its possible. Its not men that are the problem, its people who cant free think and follow &quot;the way it is&quot;. Stand up for your principals, create the tipping point.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dont create a pink ghetto, find common interests.<br />
In the book WHY WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS , the authors Alison and Avivah talk about approach gender in a bi-lingual sense. speak both gender languages &#8211; recognise they are different. celebrate the differences, without tolerating the boys club. i think its possible. Its not men that are the problem, its people who cant free think and follow &#8220;the way it is&#8221;. Stand up for your principals, create the tipping point.</p>
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		<title>By: Bailey</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-798</link>
		<dc:creator>Bailey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-798</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not pretending it doesn&#039;t exist. I just flatly refuse to let it enter the conversation. And not surprisingly, it never has. If you go looking to get offended you&#039;ll probably find something to be offended about.  If someone is making blatantly sexist comments, that&#039;s one thing. If you get &quot;excluded&quot; from a golf game by virtue of having ovaries, ok. But life is too short and my career potential is too short to pause at some sidebar comment about my shoes. More often then not I&#039;ll throw back one about theirs, it&#039;s made more friends then enemies. 

And yes, I have laughed at the &quot;sexist&quot; joke from time to time not because I felt compelled to but because it was funny and I&#039;m not really interested in apologizing for that. It&#039;s pretty easy to tell the different between a joke as a joke and a joke as an insult. I passed fourth grade recess with flying colors. 

When I got hired as the first and only woman, I took a little pause, perhaps I was a quota, or a diversity move, what have you. I understand that those types of hiring decisions are still pervasive. I also understand I sat down with the CEO and got my gig because of what I had to say and I&#039;m still very upfront and uncensored about what I have to say. He will likely be the first to tell you what a mixed blessing that is! 

When I hire for positions I look at qualifications and personality not gender. I can only live as one person and be responsible for my decisions.  If I pick the guy over the girl it&#039;s because of what is on his resume and not because she has ovaries.

I don&#039;t want to be in a workplace where everyone is on eggshells about who is going to get offended next. I don&#039;t have time for that, I want to work and go out for a beer after and I don&#039;t really care if it&#039;s with all men, half women, all women. Its not a denial of history past or present. 

What I didn&#039;t like about this piece was that it reinforced this ongoing charade that women don&#039;t like sport and are obsessed with shoes. It&#039;s a two way street, you can&#039;t rock those stereotypes and be surprised when someone uses it against you. You don&#039;t like golf? Ok talk about &quot;The Office&quot; and see if you get any takers.  I think as women we have to create change as much by example as by stamping our feet and demanding action.  Some times change by example is just grabbing a beer, making a friend, and saving the bra burning for the weekend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not pretending it doesn&#8217;t exist. I just flatly refuse to let it enter the conversation. And not surprisingly, it never has. If you go looking to get offended you&#8217;ll probably find something to be offended about.  If someone is making blatantly sexist comments, that&#8217;s one thing. If you get &#8220;excluded&#8221; from a golf game by virtue of having ovaries, ok. But life is too short and my career potential is too short to pause at some sidebar comment about my shoes. More often then not I&#8217;ll throw back one about theirs, it&#8217;s made more friends then enemies. </p>
<p>And yes, I have laughed at the &#8220;sexist&#8221; joke from time to time not because I felt compelled to but because it was funny and I&#8217;m not really interested in apologizing for that. It&#8217;s pretty easy to tell the different between a joke as a joke and a joke as an insult. I passed fourth grade recess with flying colors. </p>
<p>When I got hired as the first and only woman, I took a little pause, perhaps I was a quota, or a diversity move, what have you. I understand that those types of hiring decisions are still pervasive. I also understand I sat down with the CEO and got my gig because of what I had to say and I&#8217;m still very upfront and uncensored about what I have to say. He will likely be the first to tell you what a mixed blessing that is! </p>
<p>When I hire for positions I look at qualifications and personality not gender. I can only live as one person and be responsible for my decisions.  If I pick the guy over the girl it&#8217;s because of what is on his resume and not because she has ovaries.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to be in a workplace where everyone is on eggshells about who is going to get offended next. I don&#8217;t have time for that, I want to work and go out for a beer after and I don&#8217;t really care if it&#8217;s with all men, half women, all women. Its not a denial of history past or present. </p>
<p>What I didn&#8217;t like about this piece was that it reinforced this ongoing charade that women don&#8217;t like sport and are obsessed with shoes. It&#8217;s a two way street, you can&#8217;t rock those stereotypes and be surprised when someone uses it against you. You don&#8217;t like golf? Ok talk about &#8220;The Office&#8221; and see if you get any takers.  I think as women we have to create change as much by example as by stamping our feet and demanding action.  Some times change by example is just grabbing a beer, making a friend, and saving the bra burning for the weekend.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Luz</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-793</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Luz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-793</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Jacqueline on this- hands down. I was recently in NYC on business and dined by myself at a popular grill and was seated next door to two educated, under 30 year old men whose idea of &quot;equality&quot; in the work force frankly disappointed me and scared the hell out of me. Their conversation went something like this:

&quot;So he got fired for supposed sexual harassment in the office and he had made partner! Can you believe that?!&quot; His pal replies, &quot;Sexual harrassment is always B.S.- that never exists anyway. C&#039;mon now!&quot; His pal retored, &quot;No kidding. But anyway, this guy was fired..&quot; After which they proceeded to refer to women&#039;s anatomy as, shall we say the derogatory form of a kitty and how many they&#039;d &quot;had.&quot; THe one guy discussed how for his 30th birthday he&#039;d like to go to Mexico- hence I knew their age.

I took a good, long look at them to see if they were really young, educated men and not some &quot;old boys&quot; having scotch and cigars after a full day of getting &quot;kitty&quot; from the secretary. I was shocked. THIS is the up and coming generation of &quot;sexism-free&quot; or gender-neutral businessmen in corporate America? If it is- girls, hold on to your golf clubs- because that&#039;s going to be the LEAST of your very tired concerns!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Jacqueline on this- hands down. I was recently in NYC on business and dined by myself at a popular grill and was seated next door to two educated, under 30 year old men whose idea of &#8220;equality&#8221; in the work force frankly disappointed me and scared the hell out of me. Their conversation went something like this:</p>
<p>&#8220;So he got fired for supposed sexual harassment in the office and he had made partner! Can you believe that?!&#8221; His pal replies, &#8220;Sexual harrassment is always B.S.- that never exists anyway. C&#8217;mon now!&#8221; His pal retored, &#8220;No kidding. But anyway, this guy was fired..&#8221; After which they proceeded to refer to women&#8217;s anatomy as, shall we say the derogatory form of a kitty and how many they&#8217;d &#8220;had.&#8221; THe one guy discussed how for his 30th birthday he&#8217;d like to go to Mexico- hence I knew their age.</p>
<p>I took a good, long look at them to see if they were really young, educated men and not some &#8220;old boys&#8221; having scotch and cigars after a full day of getting &#8220;kitty&#8221; from the secretary. I was shocked. THIS is the up and coming generation of &#8220;sexism-free&#8221; or gender-neutral businessmen in corporate America? If it is- girls, hold on to your golf clubs- because that&#8217;s going to be the LEAST of your very tired concerns!</p>
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		<title>By: On Stilettos, Golf, and Genghis Khan Feminism &#171; Jacqueline Church</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-785</link>
		<dc:creator>On Stilettos, Golf, and Genghis Khan Feminism &#171; Jacqueline Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 05:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-785</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;In Her Shoes&#8221; just went live this morning in a blog called, The Glass Hammer. My article was prompted by the comments on feminism, Hillary and an interesting conversation with a friend who&#8217;s a young associate at a law firm. I find it fascinating that choice of footwear and hobbies both figure prominently in so many of these discussions. (see the sensible shoes comments in Ms.JD and linked on Glass Hammer&#8217;s home page.) Golf and shoe choices have come up a lot lately. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;In Her Shoes&#8221; just went live this morning in a blog called, The Glass Hammer. My article was prompted by the comments on feminism, Hillary and an interesting conversation with a friend who&#8217;s a young associate at a law firm. I find it fascinating that choice of footwear and hobbies both figure prominently in so many of these discussions. (see the sensible shoes comments in Ms.JD and linked on Glass Hammer&#8217;s home page.) Golf and shoe choices have come up a lot lately. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jacqueline</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-777</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacqueline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-777</guid>
		<description>Bailey: I wonder if you&#039;ve read the commentary about Hillary (see The Hillary Effect - sidebar)? The debate raging in New York Magazine&#039;s &quot;The Feminist Reawakening&quot; and the WSJ &quot;Gender at the Barricades&quot; which also cover this. 

So many young women think institutional sexism doesn&#039;t exist. Or doesn&#039;t apply to them. Like a &quot;no smoking&quot; section of a restaurant or a &quot;pee free&quot; end of the pool 

I don&#039;t think anyone advocated being &quot;a Genghis Khan&quot; about feminism, but that might be what opened the doors to women at your golf club. Or your office. 

What happens, unfortunately is that you are perceived as such if you don&#039;t laugh at a sexist joke. (see the reports of men dismissing women with the &quot;Whatever, Hillary&quot; comment.) Interesting piece in BBC about a HUGE payout by UBS to a woman who was routinely excluded, yes golf plays a part in that story, too.

By pretending sexism doesn&#039;t exist, or that women who have issues bring it upon themselves, one becomes part of the problem, not part of the solution. 38,000 men joined an internet club with a title along the lines of Hillary, Make Me a Sandwich...38,000.

I&#039;ve seen young women &quot;shoot from the hip&quot;, golf with the boys and think they&#039;re being perceived as equals. You only have to take a count in almost any organization at the gender breakout level by level to see even the 22-25% of golfers that women comprise, hasn&#039;t been reflected at the top. 

Gender SHOULD be irrelevant to your ability. Until it truly is the case that people are assessed in a bias-free way, it&#039;s incumbent on women to appreciate what the opportunities are changing things in your workplace, in smart ways and in fun ways, like playing golf. Which is fun. And still excludes women at the many turns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bailey: I wonder if you&#8217;ve read the commentary about Hillary (see The Hillary Effect &#8211; sidebar)? The debate raging in New York Magazine&#8217;s &#8220;The Feminist Reawakening&#8221; and the WSJ &#8220;Gender at the Barricades&#8221; which also cover this. </p>
<p>So many young women think institutional sexism doesn&#8217;t exist. Or doesn&#8217;t apply to them. Like a &#8220;no smoking&#8221; section of a restaurant or a &#8220;pee free&#8221; end of the pool </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone advocated being &#8220;a Genghis Khan&#8221; about feminism, but that might be what opened the doors to women at your golf club. Or your office. </p>
<p>What happens, unfortunately is that you are perceived as such if you don&#8217;t laugh at a sexist joke. (see the reports of men dismissing women with the &#8220;Whatever, Hillary&#8221; comment.) Interesting piece in BBC about a HUGE payout by UBS to a woman who was routinely excluded, yes golf plays a part in that story, too.</p>
<p>By pretending sexism doesn&#8217;t exist, or that women who have issues bring it upon themselves, one becomes part of the problem, not part of the solution. 38,000 men joined an internet club with a title along the lines of Hillary, Make Me a Sandwich&#8230;38,000.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen young women &#8220;shoot from the hip&#8221;, golf with the boys and think they&#8217;re being perceived as equals. You only have to take a count in almost any organization at the gender breakout level by level to see even the 22-25% of golfers that women comprise, hasn&#8217;t been reflected at the top. </p>
<p>Gender SHOULD be irrelevant to your ability. Until it truly is the case that people are assessed in a bias-free way, it&#8217;s incumbent on women to appreciate what the opportunities are changing things in your workplace, in smart ways and in fun ways, like playing golf. Which is fun. And still excludes women at the many turns.</p>
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		<title>By: gen xer</title>
		<link>http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/comment-page-1/#comment-770</link>
		<dc:creator>gen xer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2008/04/21/in-her-shoes-female-attorneys-on-golf-and-stilettos/#comment-770</guid>
		<description>the Ys are changing the landscape! you go girl!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the Ys are changing the landscape! you go girl!</p>
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